I had a nice, long talk the other day with a dear man who is a good friend of mine, a man of upstanding Christian ethics and deep devotion to God. It so happens that this man is an Evangelical Christian, and it occurred to me that I have much in common with him in spite of the differences of theology we have. He was interested in my conversion to Orthodoxy, and at one point asked me a question: “What would you say are the major differences between Orthodoxy and Evangelicalism?”
Whew. What a question. My first response was that Orthodoxy looks at the world sacramentally. All things, from cosmology to liturgy, are viewed sacramentally. This led us to discuss various things, from baptism to Eucharist to grace and faith and works to ecclesiology. I realized, as we talked, two things: (1) How much I respected his deep faith in God, and (2) how different and far removed the Evangelical mindset is from the Orthodox and Patristic understanding of the Church and Holy Tradition.
Several major topics came up, notably (1) the nature of the Church (visible or invisible?) (2) the personal indwelling of the Holy Spirit and whether that guaranteed correct understanding of “the Word”, (3) the patristic understanding of baptism, etc. Lurking was the vastly ignored reality of the historical Church.
I realize that one of the important things for Orthodox Christians to be able to do in coming years is to dialogue with Evangelicals. In spite of our theological and eccclesiological differences, it is simply the truth that we bear much in common with the Evangelicals. There is a love for God and an adherence to basic decency and respect for life that I share, quite frankly, more with some of my Evangelical friends than with many of the apathetic members of the Orthodox Church. The challenge for us Orthodox will be to graciously convey Orthodoxy in a way that demonstrates the importance of both ethics (orthopraxy) and dogma (orthodoxy). See here.
Here is a start: a nice essay at Orthodox Info (a site I have hesitated to recommend in the past due to some seemingly extreme views, but which I increasingly find to be more and more helpful) on the visible nature of the Church. In coming days, I want to speak more to this aspect of the Church. Is it visible? Identifiable? Can the Church be equated with a physically identifiable group on earth? Are we all “imperfect” since we are all made up of people? Does the Orthodox claim to be “The Church” withstand careful scrutiny? These are questions that we all must be able to answer as we dialogue with our Evangelical brethren.
(by Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky)
“The challenge for us Orthodox will be to graciously convey Orthodoxy in a way that demonstrates the importance of both ethics (orthodpraxy) and dogma (orthodoxy).”
I wholeheartedly agree. What a blessing that you had the opportunity for dialogue with this man. I agree with you, too, that the evangelical mindset is far removed from the Orthodox understanding of Christ and His Church. Even so, I am full of hope as I see more and more evangelicals finding the root of their faith and coming home to the Orthodox Church.
Keep up the great work, Kevin.
Blessings,
amy
Good topic Kevin. I was at a cook-out this weekend with old friends. Some hadn’t seen us in more than 8 years. The inevitable question, “Where do you go to church now?” came up. It now takes me at least a 1/2 hour to answer. Sometimes its a positive experience, like Sunday, and sometimes not. I feel a lot like the sower, just throwing out seeds in hopes that one day something will grow.
Amy and Deb,
One of the things I have realized about my own experience of Orthodox is that, truly, one must “come and see.” Orthodoxy is, in that sense, much more of an existential faith than a propositional faith. It is why we sing, at Theophany, “The worship of the Trinity was made manifest” (and not just, “the Trinity was made manifest”). We encounter God in life, liturgy, prayer, and over time, not simply in a single “salvation moment.”
However, that said, I also think that I need to become more conversant and rooted in Scriptures so that I can, on the spur of a moment, plant meaningful and thought provoking seeds, small doses of Orthodoxy that will lead a person to go home and think about it further. I have seen Orthodox who become satisfied with the “come and see” “model” to the point that I fear it can become merely an excuse for not doing serious thinking. While there is truth that “not many of us should be teachers” (St. James), it is also true, per St. Paul, that “the time has come when we ought to be teachers, but still have need to be taught” (Hebrews 5).
I am slowly gathering a collection of the main points likely to be brought up by Evangelicals/Protestants. I want to eventually put together some short replies that would help them to perhaps consider things in a new light.
Just as an example, my friend this week mentioned being “born again” and how he remembers when that happened. I remarked as a side note that this was a good example of one of differences between Orthodoxy and Evangelicalism (he was asking for differences). When I told him that the Church Fathers unanimously saw John 3 and the new birth of “water and spirit” as referring to Baptism, he said — if I understood correctly — that he had never heard that this could refer to baptism. I found that surprising, but I could tell it gave him something to think further about.
Maybe a good blog project would be to list some of the more common objections, and solicit ideas for short, cordial, and thought provoking answers an Orthodox might give?
XB!
Greetings Thomas Kevin!
First, I have to thank you for a wonderful and thought provoking website! My wife and I were raised Baptist, with both of our Dads being pastors. After our marriage, we sought a deeper relationship with Jesus Christ, and came to Holy Orthodoxy via the Eastern Catholic Church.
On one visit by my Mom recently, we engaged in a discussion on Holy Scripture and Tradition. “Where did they come from?” “Which came first?” I asked her. She really was not sure, except what she had always been told . . . Scripture, and nothing else. This to me is where we as Orthodox must show where our Faith comes from and originates.
As a former Roman & Eastern Catholic, what got me thinking about Holy Orthodoxy was the phrase “Lex Orandi Lex Credendi.” “The Law of Prayer is the Law of Belief.” If what the Catholic Church believed was in the way she prays (worships), I had some serious issues then. The Catholic Church claims to be “one,” but in her theology, her worship (including architecture and the mass), it is a cacophany of chaos. In Orthodoxy, there are disagreements about calendar & jurisdiction, but I have yet to encounter serious theological disagreements.
Some have said there are over 20,000 denominations within Christianity, and that just blows me away. I thank God for leading us to the pristine Faith of Holy Orthodoxy.
By the way, before my Mom left to return home, she asked for a copy of the Jordanville Prayerbook. Glory To God For All Things!
In XC,
Unworthy Reader Seraphim
Since I only began even attending the Liturgy a few months ago, I feel the need to respond here.
One thing that amazed me the most was how many Orthodox Christians were originally something else. Many of the local (fellow Southerner) converts were from a Baptist or similar background like me. That helps make it easier when I hear others’ stories about how they came to Orthodoxy.
I think the common ground of ethics is a good starting point for many. It seems that many evangelicals and traditional Protestants are becoming disconnected with their churches’ liberality and doctrinal uncertainty.
Great Blog!
td
Kevin,
Some wise man once said “a prophet is not without honor except in his own country.”
Our own families have a hard time with us changing. We become different and foreign, and thats scarey.
I think it important to learn deeply the nuances of our worship, but to remember that it is worship.
Jesus sent his chosen out to evangelize after they had realized God.
The trouble with later evangelization is that so often those doing it do so because they are still internally trying to justify their own decisions. “If I can convince you its true, it must be true, and then I have more confidence. in its truth.”
I know that I have done so many times out of enthusiasm, but when I looked at it, also I found my need for validation.
I have, I apologise, done it to you, sometimes.
But really who is in charge? We or He?
As I have left my comfortable niche in Methodism for a more broad examination of God’s witness in other cultures, I see more and more, the work is for me to allow others their own path and Trust God. My work is with me, How deeply can I surrender and trust? How much can I hold the Lord in my Gaze and heart as I walk through work a day world?
when I do, I only see others as an extension of Him, and then everything becomes worship. Who am I to “witness” to another unasked? Do I not trust God with His own? So I am trying to speak only when spoken to, and just love unconditionally.
If others see something in us that is of value, they will come. If we have to convince them with clever arguements, then we will watch the results with anxiousness lest our arguments fail.Then they, as we, are separate from Him, and all are lost and insecure.
But if in the moment we interact, we are activily worshiping the Lord with part of our mind, and letting the Lord put the words or deeds into us, then it proceeds from the Spirit not our brains.
From THEIR viewpoint, what would the difference between you explaining your Orthodox change to a friend using sound reasoning with scriptural and patristic underpinnings; versus being really present WITH them, radiating Love, while using your awareness to touch gently the Presence you have felt in the Cloud of Unknowing?
Wouldn’t they, to quote Wesley, “find their hearts strangely warmed” ?
If Evangelicalism has any merit, it is that sometimes they touch Christ with their hearts, but only to lose Him aghain in their tortured theologizing.
Maybe its best to work on making everything we do sacred and consecrated, and Mindfully aware of His Presence and not worry so much about cogent arguments. He will bring those across our paths when its appropriate and orchestrate if we are really surrendered.
Peace and Love
Craig
Craig,
Good points. I won’t disagree with anything, only add this: Jesus himself (along with Peter and John and James) used “logical arguments” at times, although they were NEVER dissociated from Life and the Heart. Being thusly infused with spirituality, their arguments sometimes do not sound so “logical,” but do in fact radiate peace and life. I can think of several “arguments” that Jesus made which, logically, one might find fault with, and yet when heard by the heart, make profound “sense.”
I think those of us from Evangelical type backgrounds need some “logical reasons” to become Orthodoxy… and Orthodoxy certainly holds that dogma is important. And yet, the vastly more important thing is encountering God “within you,” where the Kingdom is truly to be found.
Blessings, and thanks for stopping by.
Kevin
Craig,
Just one more thought along the lines of what you said: St. Peter said that we need to be “always ready to give an answer for the reason of the hope that is within us.” While there is an “apologetic” (“answer,” in Greek, is apologia) character to this instruction, it is much more in the way that you described it than an active, “unasked for,” campaign type strategy that shows up on people’s doorsteps unannounced and unwanted.
If I live a life of love such that demonstrates the “hope that is within me,” my main “apologetic” is simply to be ready to “give an answer.” This presupposes that people who observe me will be the ones asking questions of me; i.e., they — not I — will broach the topic.
That said, I also think that the interaction might be different WITHIN Christian relationships. Thus, my Evangelical friend — who already believes in basic Christianity and shares much with me — will engage me in very different discussions than someone who came to me looking for hope from outside of faith and the mystery of Christ. I can see the former relationships involving more doctrinally centered discussions, in the bond of friendship, than the latter might.
Kevin